The Sundering of the Community - UB Anet's Double-Edged Sword

[arcant]

UB is just another cookie cutter build! Except that this time, the build has already been set up for you. There will always be players who seek quick gratification and consequently, there will always be a conformation to the optimal (meaning easiest and most efficient) build to achieve that intention.

Game play diversity will remain just as low, with or without UB. At least now there are the old team builds and Ursanway to choose from. Remove UB, back to those old team builds. Net change? 0. Just another sore area in the history of nerfs.

Besides, UB gave unpopular professions the opportunity to join in the fun in certain areas which would otherwise not accept them, not due to the inability of the professions, but because of the rigid requirements of the old cookie cutter builds which most PUGs blindly follow. Not the fault of anyone here, blame the norm.

Give UB and those who want to play Ursanway, whatever their reason, a chance. Profession non-specific PvE skills have equalized the playing field somewhat, and this is good. Don't overexaggerate and declare it the demise of all other builds and the game.

[strcpy]

Originally Posted by trobinson97

More than a fear of UB becoming the way to play PvE I am more worried about a select few who feel they are entitled to something trying to deny the majority the choice of builds they want to play. That's what will ruin the game in my opinion. On one side you have a relatively small amount of the player base dictating how others should play, anyway you slice it, it's not right.

Therein lies the basic problem with freedom and choice. No matter what you do, how you balance, nerf, or boost there will be builds and skills that are slightly better than others. No way around this. If you allow people to play as they want there will be some consensus come out of it and some will hate it, some will love it. Those that hate it will want to force their play style on other having felt that the community has chosen wrongly (and thus, forces them). It isn't relegated to games either - how many political parties, over all, want to force the other side to agree with them (every single one on the planet, do not take that statement as US centric)?

As long as you put out options for people, the community will tend to pick the easiest and most efficient, it is hard to say which will be the most important (the most efficient isn't usually the easiest nor is the easiest the most effecient - the community will seek to balance it). However, there will be some consensus arrived at.

So, lets take another example. There is a three necro/rit build running around that many say rule the game - you can roll over everything in the game. That now there is no variety in the game, that the build must be "balanced" (it is even starting to creep into human parties wanting the team build - much like B/P rangers). For many of us, there is some level of confusion because it is no better or worse than what we have been playing for ages - in fact I find it no better or worse than what I have played since nightfall (though I do agree that they roll over most of the game). Even within that build there is a great deal of variety that the better players have adapted. You gave me freedom to change builds, hundreds of viable skills and builds, and get angry that one of the many good ones is now used? And then the next person posts their hero build and we start all over again.

In the end one has to decide - are you the God of GW and can tell others how to play. Frankly, only Anet is that and they use it. The same can be said of the limit on heroes, limit on PvE only skills, and quite a bit other things. The more freedom you give people the more likely they are to do something you do not like (and, amusingly enough, the more likely the mid range players are to demand a single build). I fully understand the need for balance and forcing changes in PvP, but this is a very different argument.

In the game world when you do this type of restriction too much and people simply leave for other games (that is, you can not force me to play the way you want, I have out of game freedoms that allow me to give you the middle finger). This type of thing was the whole freaking purpose of PvE only skills - unbalanced and no real reason to nerf. Why not just allow the things in PvP and balance them if we want to start this stuff?

[Kusandaa]

Originally Posted by strcpy

You gave me freedom to change builds, hundreds of viable skills and builds, and get angry that one of the many good ones is now used? And then the next person posts their hero build and we start all over again.

People are people - they DO get angry when it happens. They don't see that there are other skills. They whine, they whine... and yet some people adjust perfectly to skill nerfs. And sure, some nerfs really suck, like that Agressive Refrain that now applies Cracked Armor (thus deemed as overpowered somewhere... probably in PvP, because the AI doesn't CARE how you kill them), but we deal with it anyways. We use other stuff.

I stopped seeing nerfs as something that cripples me, but as a chance to try new stuff... even if I don't the nerfs >_>. I just deal with it I guess.

[cebalrai]

Originally Posted by arcant

Besides, UB gave unpopular professions the opportunity to join in the fun in certain areas which would otherwise not accept them, not due to the inability of the professions, but because of the rigid requirements of the old cookie cutter builds which most PUGs blindly follow. Not the fault of anyone here, blame the norm.

I wish people would stop saying that UB gave certain professions the ability to play in certain areas. If you're a mesmer playing UB, you're not playing a mesmer - you're playing a bear. Doesn't fix the problem at all.

[milan]

So, the complaint is.

UB is too powerful
You can't get into teams unless you run UB

Since GW started there has been builds of the month, disliked character classes and 'elitism'. This is nothing new.

Yes UB is powerful, a powerful PvE skill that requires a title track to use effectively. Combine that with LB rank (yes another title track required for effective use in the areas that people are complaining about the most) and it becomes even more powerful in DoA.

With the exception of trade - which is frankly a joke in most circumstances anyhow, there is no harm to the majority of players. If people are being truthful when they say how many people dislike UB and it's 'god mode' then you'll be fine getting into Pugs that don't use it.

PvE balance went out of the window with the introduction of Factions, was further thrown out with the addition of Nightfall, simply due to the expanded skill trees and power creep.

UB Will get nerfed eventually, likely because of a tiny percentage of GW players on fan forums. Then you can move onto yelling about the other two blessings, which when used correctly can be even more devastating than UB.

[cebalrai]

Originally Posted by milan

So, the complaint is.

UB is too powerful
You can't get into teams unless you run UB

Since GW started there has been builds of the month, disliked character classes and 'elitism'. This is nothing new.

Yes UB is powerful, a powerful PvE skill that requires a title track to use effectively. Combine that with LB rank (yes another title track required for effective use in the areas that people are complaining about the most) and it becomes even more powerful in DoA.

With the exception of trade - which is frankly a joke in most circumstances anyhow, there is no harm to the majority of players. If people are being truthful when they say how many people dislike UB and it's 'god mode' then you'll be fine getting into Pugs that don't use it.

PvE balance went out of the window with the introduction of Factions, was further thrown out with the addition of Nightfall, simply due to the expanded skill trees and power creep.

UB Will get nerfed eventually, likely because of a tiny percentage of GW players on fan forums. Then you can move onto yelling about the other two blessings, which when used correctly can be even more devastating than UB.

You realize that you can get to lv 4 on the Norn track in just a couple hours, and that there isn't really much difference between lv 4 and say, lv 7, right?

[Spazzer]

Running 8 copies of a PvE-only elite unbalances PvE.

Someone nerf.

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Paragons are probably the most powerful class for PvE as it stands right now. So why isn't everyone a Para?

God I wish I was, you know? But that campaign's tutorial always cramps my fingers from all the sunspear grind.

[Dante the Warlord]

I haven't tried it yet since i didn't think the moveset was cool. Plus i wanted to turn into a bear :-(... How cool would it be to turn into a fricking bear!!!!! You would look AWESOME!!!!!

Lol anyways i have to add that a lot of wars still use the traditional strategy. Its fun and great to play with and the skill will be nerfed, i guarantee you!

[Effendi Westland]

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Paragons are probably the most powerful class for PvE as it stands right now. So why isn't everyone a Para?

Because with paragons you actually need to think about your build and cannot run same skillbar x 6.

[Bryant Again]

My point was that even if there is a "most powerful build/skill", there will be quite a lot of people that don't use it. More than anything, people will play what's most fun.

Of course, probably the reason not everyone's a Paragon is because people think that they're totally useless and nerfed to bajeesus, but that's a totally different problem...

[kazjun]

Hmm, SS + six other skills or UB? It's fun for a while, especially with SR, but if you want real carnage there are better builds. You should see a guild team with multiple SS. Plus people have crushed fow and uw with heroes (who can't UB) easily, so it's not like UB is godmode and the only way to play.

I reckon you should just leave it alone, let people play how they want to play. And if someone can't build a decent bar and needs this to play? So what? At least they're enjoying something. And it helps for less used classes too. I've got a couple of guildies who have pve mesmers. The rest of us usually laugh at them and try to convert them to being necros. Not cause mesmers are bad, they're right useful for pvp, but cause in pve they're not likely to get in any team outside of us guildies. Or their heroes. But now, they can actually get into groups which wouldn't ever look at them in the first place. I mean tombs? B/P. Deep? Steel wall. All pretty much set builds anyway, except it only needs certain classes. UB has set skills (and pretty much no utility) but allows any class to play.

[Legendary Battousai]

I read somewhere, someone said "PvE Takes skill"

It doesnt - its a very mindless effort in almost all areas of PvE- thus UB makes your time spent on this game more efficient towards getting it over with.

[Spazzer]

I heard Contra takes no skill because it's the same thing every time you play.

[Burst Cancel]

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

The question is not whether or not something used to/should require skill or effort, and your slippery slope of "if they make it any easier they might as well just make all mosnters 1st level with cake drops all the time" does not follow. No one, including myself, is interested in exploits as the primary function of the game. There will always be someone willing to take advantage of an exploit because they can, and do not have the moral fortitude not to do so. These exploits are almost always nerfed by ANet, and in my oppinion usually in the simplest most convenient way for them with little regard for player goals and aspirations. They have never been wise enough when taking toys away from us, to give us something Equitable back. Because the fact is, when a group of people are using an exploit, botting, or something else to overcome tedium then there is something wrong with the game design that makes the exploit preferable.

First, I would like to correct your misinterpretation of my statement. I was not attempting to argue slippery slope; rather, I was trying to refute the premise that "balance isn't necessary in PvE" (presumably because it is non-competitive). In refuting broad, meritless assertions, often the most effective method is to find a logically-consistent counterexample, which is what I was attempting (hopefully with success) to do. Nowhere do I argue that, "if they're going to make it easier, they might as well do X".

Second, the entire idea of an exploit is that they inappropriately reduce difficulty in some fashion, usually in skill or effort required to achieve some goal or obtain some reward. The problem, however, is that the traditional definition of 'exploit' is not instructive for our discussion because it is entirely a matter of legality and propriety - i.e., it's only an exploit if Anet says it is. If Anet had not banned botting for instance, or fixed AFK farming, those could not be called exploits - and there would therefore be nothing 'illegal' about using them. The entire issue being discussed is whether, even if not technically illegal, it would be correct/ethical to take the easy way out.

The final sentence cited above is correct - if people resort to exploits, the game has failed at a fundamental level to serve its most basic purpose (read: be fun). However, I think it's impossible to design an RPG (particularly an MMO) that simply lacks any tedium whatsoever.

[snikerz]

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

PvE has been given imbalanced skills to do the following:

1. Add grind and reward in the form of power.
   
2. Ease the gameplay (for HM mainly)
   
3. Counteract PvP nerfs and their overall effect on PvE.
   
4. Attempt a kind of separation between PvP and PvE.

Quoting from another thread, same applies here.

So they have given us skills like UB, which we have to grind to a certain lvl, and as a reward we have some power, which doesnt effect pvp.

Also nobody in this thead mentions the fact that UB is elite, so if a PvE only skill is meant to improve a skillbar and generally be better than regular skills, then what is a elite pve only skill supposed to be like, two words, Urban Blessing.

[draxynnic]

Personally, I see two problems with Ursan:

First, and this is a general thing with PvE skills and titles: They do, if not destroy, at least significantly weaken the GW premise of skill over grind through the introduction of a slapped on, even-more-grindy-than-the-traditional* levelling system. Ursan is pretty much the poster child of this - of the PvE skills it's one of the ones more sensitive to the effects of title (higher title gives you more health, more armour, more damage - pretty much more everything) and it's used enough that, if there is anything in the current build that's going to lead to a title becoming a barrier for entry in the general game rather than specific areas such as DoA, it'll be the bear.

Second, I actually feel that the blessing loses some of it's flavour by being so powerful.

Consider what sort of tactics could be used with it if it was properly balanced. A Mesmer could put a build together specifically tailored for a particular enemy that the party would otherwise have trouble with, resorting to going bear for other foes. An Elementalist could have the blessing in reserve for if they're crippled, dazed, and surrounded by enemy melee - or just when low on energy. An Assassin can load up a high-power, high-recharge chain confident that they can finish by going bear rather than having to resort to autoattacking or retreating while the skills recharge.

Currently, however, using the bear seems to simply be a case of "go bear. Ignore the rest of your bar. Kill everything" - which takes away all of the skill's potential flavour.

I think one of the problems is that getting it there requires a fine balance (between not being worth it - period - and being broken) - and with the current title system, it's practically impossible to achieve that balance (if it was achieved at, say, R5, at R10 it would be broken again. If it wasn't achieved until R8, it'd be a nonexistent skill for anyone who didn't care to grind. It would have been better either completely unlinked or linked to something more like a traditional attribute (although that might probably just encourage people to dump all their attributes in it and continue to ignore the other skills on their bar), but at the moment without doing a significant overhaul I don't think they can get it balanced properly.

* Yes, the increased benefit for books helps against this. A lot. However, you can still only get your pseudo-experience from a limited part of the game, while a conventional levelling system will grant experience for pretty much anything you do, thus giving more options as to what to do while advancing.

[Fitz Rinley]

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

First, I would like to correct your misinterpretation of my statement. I was not attempting to argue slippery slope; rather, I was trying to refute the premise that "balance isn't necessary in PvE" (presumably because it is non-competitive). In refuting broad, meritless assertions, often the most effective method is to find a logically-consistent counterexample, which is what I was attempting (hopefully with success) to do. Nowhere do I argue that, "if they're going to make it easier, they might as well do X".

Second, the entire idea of an exploit is that they inappropriately reduce difficulty in some fashion, usually in skill or effort required to achieve some goal or obtain some reward. The problem, however, is that the traditional definition of 'exploit' is not instructive for our discussion because it is entirely a matter of legality and propriety - i.e., it's only an exploit if Anet says it is. If Anet had not banned botting for instance, or fixed AFK farming, those could not be called exploits - and there would therefore be nothing 'illegal' about using them. The entire issue being discussed is whether, even if not technically illegal, it would be correct/ethical to take the easy way out.

The final sentence cited above is correct - if people resort to exploits, the game has failed at a fundamental level to serve its most basic purpose (read: be fun). However, I think it's impossible to design an RPG (particularly an MMO) that simply lacks any tedium whatsoever.

Ok, the example of dropping to all level 1 monsters looked pretty slipery slopish to me, . Sorry, I took it the wrong way.

A problem too is, ANet provides skills for use in attaining the goals they also provide. When I Game Master I Always provide a means by which the players can attain the goal, and sometimes go with the creative inspiration they add instead. But what I am seeing here, is that should ANet provide a mission where they know a set build or skill will be instructive or beneficial then there will be screams to have that skill or build nerfed because it allows the players (usually other players after one has already passed that obstacle) to meet the challenge and move on.

Consider the nerf of Winter/Greater Conflagration on Hell's. It was traditional, that a ranger who was useless or merely a fill in anyplace else was going to be certain to be needed there. The same with Mesmer. Mesmer's had to beg into PUGs for missions from Ascalon to Hell's - but by golly not at Hell's! Suddenly that Mesmer was popular to shut down the Lich. What was wrong with Winter/GC. Rangers got to cap, the party got training using a system, and the everyone got a boost getting mission and bonus. Now, I play Ice Ele and take a build I call Hell's Solace designed specifically to shut down and kill imps. Works very well on Titan spawn too. Take a ranger - why? Take a Mesmer - why?

And I will agree, a lot of RPGs will end up with some tedium. Like reading a book - segues suck but they are the only thing connecting the plot points. However, there is a difference between unavoidable tedium and turning the point of the game into a grindfest for titles and gold. Currently we have over 6 Million, Million mind you, gold needed to max I think Treasure Hunter. One needs 2-4million kills to get each faction title maxed for the PvE skill use - and has to pay for the blessing to do that. Is there any question as to why some people would seek an exploit? That is just three titles...

[Nemo the Capitalist]

and yes i have seen it in Doa popular build makes it very easy to win against that big purple ape



tooe asy imo

game should be with skill not grind ...but we all know what this game is leading too

ill have to hire a bot farmer jsut to be competive in game /j/k

[Fitz Rinley]

The game used to only require grind for elite armors. With the introduction of titles in Faction, it became and remains a game only about grind.

[Karyuu]

A game only about grind? I lol'ed :P I don't think you've played many other games in comparison then. Apologies if that's not the case, but GW is still one of the best in its genre when it comes to being able to enjoy without needing to grind.